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Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

I keep reading comments by people referring to how we need to make Britain great again as it was 50 or 60 years ago.  But how great was Britain then?  Is there not just a bit too much myth-making here?

Was Britain a world power?  Not really - it had emerged on the winning side in World War II but was completely bankrupt and was rapidly disposing of its Empire, which had become a political problem as well as an unsustainable drain on resources.  The Suez crisis in 1956 showed just how feeble the country had become (politically, economically and militarily).

Was it an economic powerhouse?  No, the underlying problems of productivity in the economy were extremely serious but were hidden by multiple trade and currency controls as well as the temporary weakness of some of our economic competitors (France, Germany).

Did Britain have a prestigious educational system? More in reputation than fact, I suspect.  The weaknesses were especially evident in subjects like science and engineering.

Was Britain a tolerant and free society?  I cannot see how that could be argued compared to today.  For all the talk of the government inhibiting freedoms, most people today have a degree of freedom that would have been envied by previous generations.

This is not to suggest that Britain is perfect today - far from it - but to explore just how far our image of the country in past years is shaped by too much wishful thinking.

The question is therefore: how 'great' was Britain in the early post-war period (say, 1945-60), and should we be trying to emulate or recreate anything from that time?

BTW, I assume that most people, if not all, will be unable to speak from personal knowledge of that period.  smile

Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

Nothing at all.
We have progressed in every way. Many of the 'problems' we see today that people would argue we did not see then are merely the result of the changing world; higher populations tend to cause higher crime rates in absolute terms, society is more liberal now, and so on and so forth.

Rather than yearn for the past we should be looking to, and working to forge, a better future. To yearn for the past betrays those who helped make the world better, because by its very nature it rejects innovation and progress.

Celebrate not that you are English; nor Scottish nor Welsh, nor any other nation of the world; celebrate instead your common humanity.

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Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

News online today:-
Several stabbings one dead
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/ … 172981.stm
gun related offence
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/ … 172965.stm
Deaths unkown
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/7172901.stm
Drug related death (alleged)
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertai … 172765.stm


I' ve chosen headlines that you would never see in the 1950's.
Gun crime was unheard of. Stabbings rare.
One major advantage today is being informed. Many crimes in those days went unreported.

However, I believe we are following the US. Whilst the entertainment industry soften the blow of murders to the point of acceptability, it is a sobering thought that youths in US cities expect to attend funerals on a regular basis throughout their lives, whilst we in the UK consider attending funerals almost only for elderly relatives.

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Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

At Xmas I receive books on railways / rail related topics - this year being no exception.
It's nostalgic to see how 'Great Brtain's' transport infrastructure used to be like in the 1940/50/60's, with stations and lines all over the place. It is also a reminder of the pollution, filth and poverty that made up middle Britain.

Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

Nothing at all.
We have progressed in every way. Many of the 'problems' we see today that people would argue we did not see then are merely the result of the changing world; higher populations tend to cause higher crime rates in absolute terms, society is more liberal now, and so on and so forth.

Rather than yearn for the past we should be looking to, and working to forge, a better future. To yearn for the past betrays those who helped make the world better, because by its very nature it rejects innovation and progress.

Progress for the sake of progress is not always desirable. For example, I don't believe in messing around with human embryos - I believe it to be completely unethical.

Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam.

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Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

As it happens, someone in the other place has just posted this from George Macdonald Fraser in the Daily Mail:

"No generation has seen their country so altered, so turned upside down, as children like me born in the 20 years between the two world wars. In our adult lives Britain's entire national spirit, its philosophy, values and standards, have changed beyond belief.

"Probably no country on earth has experienced such a revolution in thought and outlook and behaviour in so short a space.

"My generation has seen the decay of ordinary morality, standards of decency, sportsmanship, politeness, respect for the law, family values, politics and education and religion, the very character of the British.

"Oh how Blimpish this must sound to modern ears, how out of date, how blind to "the need for change and the novelty of a new age". But don't worry about me. It's the present generation with their permissive society, their anything-goes philosophy, and their generally laid-back, inyerface attitude I feel sorry for.

"They regard themselves as a completely liberated society when in fact they are less free than any generation since the Middle Ages.

"Indeed, there may never have been such an enslaved generation, in thrall to hang-ups, taboos, restrictions and oppressions unknown to their ancestors (to say nothing of being neck-deep in debt, thanks to a moneylender's economy).

"We were freer by far 50 years ago - yes, even with conscription, censorship, direction of labour, rationing, and shortages of everything that nowadays is regarded as essential to enjoyment.

"We still had liberty beyond modern understanding because we had other freedoms, the really important ones, that are denied to the youth of today.

"We could say what we liked; they can't. We were not subject to the aggressive pressure of specialinterest minority groups; they are. We had no worries about race or sexual orientation; they have. We could, and did, differ from fashionable opinion with impunity, and would have laughed PC to scorn, had our society been weak and stupid enough to let it exist.

"Short of assassination there is little people can do when their political masters have forgotten the true meaning of the democracy of which they are forever prating, are determined to have their own way at all costs and hold public opinion in contempt.

This is highly relevant to the topic.  Anyone care to comment?

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Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

I'm sure living 50 yrs ago, the expectations were very much lower than today, whereas now there are far more opportunities to do what you want.

We had no worries about race or sexual orientation


I'm sure 'gay' indivuals would disagree.

There was an oppressive class system that would never be accepted now.

Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

I believe it was only in the past few decades that homosexuality and sodomy were legalised.
And I find the idea that there were no worries about race to be difficult to believe.

Going back to that by Fraser, the morality matter is opinion - does he, for example, feel that discrimination is immoral? If he does then he should be praising the moral progress in acceptance of other sexualities, races, cultures etc. - as is the bit about standards of decency. Sportsmanship too is subjective; politeness less so, and I find that most people I know are generally very courteous and well-mannered. Respect for the law is a tricky one; what do we judge it by? The crime rate? If so, then absolute or relative? And how do we take into account any new laws since then (logically, the more laws there are, the higher the crime rate, as there are fewer things you can do that aren't a crime)?
Family values: aside from the obvious subjectivity of this, I would also ask which family values he meant. Spending time with your family, perhaps? Then what if your parents are abusive or oppressive? What if you don't share the same interests? And so on.
Politics, education and religion; the first and last points are subjective; the second point may have some justification, given that earlier generations were learning calculus at the age of 16 (I have to wait until sixth form, or 17, although I have in fact already studied some aspects with my teachers during lunchtimes - it is merely a matter of whether or not you wish to make the effort). In some ways we have probably improved.

What are hang-ups? :S

And what taboos? What restrictions? What oppressions? And how is the debt worse when the standard of living has improved also? And how do all these compare to his days - what taboos, restrictions, oppressions and debts did his generation have?

And I would argue that we don't subject to pressure; we subject to basic morality which teaches us that all humans are equal. I ask what is inherently wrong with political correctness, and I protest strongly against the insults he then lays against modern society!

And, as for the last point, though I disagree with the image he gives of our political leaders, I would ask: were things any different for his generation? Of course not.

Celebrate not that you are English; nor Scottish nor Welsh, nor any other nation of the world; celebrate instead your common humanity.

Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

Nothing at all.
We have progressed in every way. Many of the 'problems' we see today that people would argue we did not see then are merely the result of the changing world; higher populations tend to cause higher crime rates in absolute terms, society is more liberal now, and so on and so forth.

Rather than yearn for the past we should be looking to, and working to forge, a better future. To yearn for the past betrays those who helped make the world better, because by its very nature it rejects innovation and progress.

Progress for the sake of progress is not always desirable. For example, I don't believe in messing around with human embryos - I believe it to be completely unethical.

No-one, I think, would argue for progress without the inhibitions of morality; merely that we should not look to the past.
I will pose this question to you, though: how would you judge a man who had the choice of dying and preventing the deaths of many in the future or of living and not preventing those deaths, and who chose the latter?

Celebrate not that you are English; nor Scottish nor Welsh, nor any other nation of the world; celebrate instead your common humanity.

Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

Nothing at all.
We have progressed in every way. Many of the 'problems' we see today that people would argue we did not see then are merely the result of the changing world; higher populations tend to cause higher crime rates in absolute terms, society is more liberal now, and so on and so forth.

Rather than yearn for the past we should be looking to, and working to forge, a better future. To yearn for the past betrays those who helped make the world better, because by its very nature it rejects innovation and progress.

Progress for the sake of progress is not always desirable. For example, I don't believe in messing around with human embryos - I believe it to be completely unethical.

No-one, I think, would argue for progress without the inhibitions of morality; merely that we should not look to the past.
I will pose this question to you, though: how would you judge a man who had the choice of dying and preventing the deaths of many in the future or of living and not preventing those deaths, and who chose the latter?

I'd think he was selfish. I'll remind you, sir, that embryos do not get the luxury of making that choice.

Mind you, I'm selfish - I refuse to donate my organs. They're mine as far as I'm concerned, dead or otherwise.

Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam.

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Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

Respect for the law is a tricky one; what do we judge it by?


Perhaps one of the most marked changes over the years.
In the '60's there was respect for the Bobby on the beat, reflected by BBC's Dixon of Dock Green....

..now we see unsolved gangland murders where I believe witnesses would never co-operate with the Police.
And recently I have had 2 complaints lodged against different forces:-
- one upheld although hardly a victory
- the other pending, but like many complaints against the Police, is to do with attitudes of individuals within.

Re: Britain: Myths and Reality

Tell you what though, before this country was destroyed by consumerism and pc nonsense people were happy and we used to have fun. The 50s and 60s were wonderful decades and if I were given the chance I'd go back in a heartbeat. And you could all come too!